Episode 4 A Lot Of Help From Friends
Hosted by: Phil Peck Guests: Mike Whitehead, Sue Whitehead, Patrice Dagenais, Trevor Hirschfield
Excerpt Episode 4 A Lot Of Help From Friends:
You’re going to meet a man who plays a contact sport at the highest level, including World Championships and Paralympic Games. Mike Whitehead was seriously injured in a car crash. His life changed dramatically. That was 1999. Now, Mike travels the world playing wheelchair rugby and teaching others how to play.
About The Host:
Phil Peck is a freelance journalist and media specialist. Originally from Saint John, NB, he as lived in the Windsor areas since 1984. During his career, Phil filled in a variety of roles in broadcasting. He worked as a technician, a Disc Jockey, Videographer and writer. Phil also worked for 30+ years at CBC Radio & TV as a reporter, an editor, and a program producer.
Transcript Episode 4 A Lot Of Help From Friends:
Phil Peck 0:08
Welcome to Better Together with A Life Worth Living. I’m Phil Peck. Our stories teach, inspire and bind people together.
On this podcast, you’re going to meet a man who plays a contact sport at the highest level, including World Championships and Paralympic Games.
Mike Whitehead 0:26
I got involved with wheelchair rugby while in spinal cord rehab, and that blew the doors off of the whole thing. It offered everything. And it still offers everything and has just given me everything I have as far as a really great life, now.
Phil Peck 0:39
That’s Mike Whitehead, a member of Canada’s wheelchair rugby team. You’ll also hear from some of the people who have helped Mike reach the top rung of his sport.
Thanks to marathoners Len and Christine Fuerth, for sponsoring this podcast.
Phil Peck 0:59
Mike Whitehead was born in Windsor. He grew up here and in Colchester, where he graduated from Harrow High School. When he was 24. Mike was seriously injured in a car crash. His life changed dramatically. That was 1999. Now, Mike travels the world playing wheelchair rugby and teaching others how to play.
Mike is now joining us from his home in Hollis, New Hampshire. Welcome, Mike.
Mike Whitehead 1:25
Thank you very much for having me. This is exciting.
Phil Peck 1:28
Good, Mike. Can we start just a few months before your car crash? What kind of work were you doing and what were your pastimes during that time?
Mike Whitehead 1:35
Oh, I just had gotten my skates ready for senior league hockey. So, I was pumped about that. It was fall 1999 and I was playing some recreational basketball. Enjoyed golf. And I was working, apprenticing as an electrician. So, life was rolling along.
Phil Peck 1:57
Sounds like you’re a pretty busy guy.
Mike Whitehead 1:59
Trying to be, yeah.
Phil Peck 2:01
But then you had the car crash? What happened over the next few weeks?
Mike Whitehead 2:05
Yeah, so November 25th, 1999. Crashed my little Mustang, rolled it on the roof, broke my neck. And the following four weeks was intensive care with some pretty scary moments for the family and for myself. But I got some great medical care at Hotel Dieu Hospital in Windsor there and they pulled me through.
Phil Peck 2:28
So, what kind of things do you think about while you’re laying in a hospital bed with a broken neck?
Mike Whitehead 2:34
You know, it’s a catastrophic injury. So, I just remember being shattered, I didn’t want to be paralyzed. I didn’t plan on being paralyzed at 24. I didn’t know anyone. I was really, really scared. And, you know, I couldn’t feel my body. My hands weren’t working. So, it was really scary moment. But my family really helped me through, told me it was going to be okay. And then I met some other people that were paralyzed, and they told me I was going to be okay. And I could see that it was going to be okay.
Phil Peck 3:03
How did your parents, your family help you?
Mike Whitehead 3:06
You know, just taking my negative attitude and my tears and, and listening to me vent about not wanting to be paralyzed? At the time, you know, I remember my mom taking a picture of me and I was just there’s a picture of me in the hospital, like, just so angry. Like, why are you taking a picture of it? It’s a really kind of funny photo now.
Phil Peck 3:32
You didn’t think it was funny at the time?
Mike Whitehead 3:34
Oh, I had a quite the frown.
Phil Peck 3:37
I can imagine.
But, Mike at this point, I’d like to invite your stepmother, Sue Whitehead, to join the conversation. Sue lives here in Windsor, and she’s in the studio with me. Hi, Sue.
Sue Whitehead 3:47
Phil Peck 3:48
What kind of support did the family have to give Mike?
Sue Whitehead 3:52
You know what, we were just all there for him. His dad was very forceful and getting them to do things and I didn’t let him get away with anything. Even when he come out of rehab. I didn’t let him get away with anything.
Phil Peck 4:08
Needed a little push, did he?
Sue Whitehead 4:09
Oh, yeah. He liked to play that he was worse than he was, I guess. But he was worse. Like, I mean, it was bad. But he would get out of his chair and sit on the couch and then he would ask his stepsisters to go get him a sandwich. And I’d tell him, no! Get in your chair and do it yourself. You can do it. So, this was one of the things that I think we all pushed him; his mom, his dad, myself. We wouldn’t let him get down. We wouldn’t let them stop.
Phil Peck 4:40
So, lots of hospital visits?
Sue Whitehead 4:42
A lot of hospital visits more for his mom and his dad. Because I was working and I had the girls at home.
Phil Peck 4:49
And, did you notice a change in Mike from the time before his accident and after
Sue Whitehead 4:54
Oh, very much so. Just his whole outlook in life changed. It took a while, but it did. Beforehand he was cocky and he still is. Sorry, Mike. (chuckles) But, you know what, he’s just a better person. Like, his whole outlook is more positive now than I’ve ever seen him.
Phil Peck 5:21
So, I’m going to get back to you in a few minutes. But Mike, I know after you were in hospital in Windsor, you were transferred to London to continue your treatment. And what was that like going to rehab?
Mike Whitehead 5:34
It was really welcoming. It gave me a lot of perspective. The first day I arrived was January 1, 2000. And a couple of gentlemen, one was a physician who broke his neck kayaking and the other gentleman was in a motorcycle accident in Portugal. They came to my hospital room, you know, I wasn’t sitting up, I was still had a tracheotomy. And they just came in. They introduced themselves and they had a few jokes, and the laughs started and just kind of feeling normal again. I met people that were more paralyzed than I was, and had a better attitude than I had at that point. And I, at that point, made a decision that I was fortunate.
Phil Peck 6:18
Okay, what was the toughest part about learning how to ride the chair?
Mike Whitehead 6:24
You know, it was just the early parts, right? You can’t even sit up, you know, the first part of physical therapy is learning to roll over. So, you feel like an infant, but as an adult, so you feel helpless. You just you just look at yourself and you think, you know, this is exhausting. And all I’m doing is swinging my arms to try to lay on my side. You know, it takes weeks to just sit up. And that is depressing.
But they made it in a fun, positive environment. And if you put the work in, you got gains. Actually, you know, I was sitting up and then I was able to use a transfer board and sit on my wheelchair. So just trying to take the little wins along the way is what got me through rehab.
Phil Peck 7:07
So, how did you get invited or enticed to play wheelchair rugby?
Mike Whitehead 7:14
Yeah, one of the wheelchair basketball players, Sue McRae came to the hospital one day and I watched her get out of her little Suzuki tracker and into her wheelchair. And I just I couldn’t believe people did that. And then she came up and she had a positive attitude. And then a gentleman, David Helsby and another gentleman, David Willsie, came up and introduced themselves. And David Willsie, who’s the Assistant Coach of Wheelchair Rugby Canada, brought me to my first practice. And that that was just when everything changed. He and I had a great conversation on the way there. I felt normal again, just hanging out with the dude, and chit chatting. And finally, I got in the gymnasium. You know, I met people that were in chairs between 30 years and five years. And it was off to the races. It was amazing. It was like, oh my God. The sport is unbelievable. It’s bumper cars. It’s fun. You know, it’s like basketball, which I love. So, it offered everything and it still offers everything and it’s given me everything I have, as far as a really great life now, 20 years later.
Phil Peck 8:20
When you first saw it, did you think oh, yes, I can do that?
Mike Whitehead 8:23
Yep! I was confident that this is something I could do. I didn’t know how to operate a wheelchair. You know, I spent thousands of hours playing basketball. So, I when I’m on a basketball court, I feel like I’m at home. And so, wheelchair rugby takes place on a basketball court. And I love gymnasiums. And I love the basketball courts. I just do, I always have.
Phil Peck 8:46
So, is it tough sport to learn?
Mike Whitehead 8:49
It is, you know. Like Sue said, I’m cocky. So initially, you know, the first five years I thought I knew it all. And all I knew was my mouth could run and that was about it. So now 20 years later, I’m like, oh my God. I’m still working on the fundamentals. I’m still learning strategy. I was in the gym yesterday morning by myself for an hour training and just in heaven, loving it.
Phil Peck 9:15
So, the fact that you played basketball before, was that an advantage to you as you’re learning to play wheelchair rugby?
Mike Whitehead 9:22
Yeah. I was comfortable on the floor. And thankfully, in Harrow, I had a coach growing up that taught us in the community how to use our left and right in grade six, seven and eight. We would go to the gymnasium every morning, during the school year for basketball, volleyball, and badminton. And so, he would throw us caramels every time you would make a left-handed layup or work hard. So, I learned early that sports is fun. And I also learned how to train and also learn how to use both hands and then learn about anticipation. So, by the time I was in grade eight, reading plays, and finding the open person was just habit. He was a very exceptional person that changed my life.
Phil Peck 10:09
I’m just going to go back to your stepmother here for a minute, Mike.
Sue, what do you remember about Mike’s time in rehab and in London when he got into rugby?
Sue Whitehead 10:20
Rehab. The one thing that I remember is going to see him there and he was showing us… Mike? The clothespins, the strength of the clothespins. Each clothespin had a different strength open. And I remember him showing his dad, “look dad I can do this.”
His dad just turned around and goes, he’s holding the clothes pin and he’s going “what’s wrong with this? Like, it’s so easy.” And Mike just a said, “dad I can’t feel it. This is important for me”.
And then there is another time, Mike. You remember your first transfer to the car?
Mike Whitehead 11:00
Sue Whitehead 11:02
Well, your dad came up and got you and you took the taxi to the restaurant.
Mike Whitehead 11:08
That was very memorable.
Sue Whitehead 11:09
That was a big thing for him to be able to transfer from his chair to the car. So, the taxi driver, they went for dinner. And then on the way back, I think you left your wheelchair back at the restaurant. Did you not?
Mike Whitehead & Sue Whitehead 11:20
No, so the… Oh! It was the arm.
Mike Whitehead 11:24
The arm rest and the wheely bars were in the back of the car? It was a fun adventure. Dad was always making it fun. But there’s also a big deal like going to a restaurant. And transferring in a cab and doing all these independent things, you know, was a big deal. It was a big stepping stone.
So, just like closing a clothespin. You know, because your hands don’t work because you broke your neck. It’s these little wins. So, I remember that night was having so much fun with dad. And then the cab driver came back hours later with parts of my wheelchair that was a borrowed chair. It was it was just a fun adventure.
Sue Whitehead 11:58
Oh my God. There is a lot of fun times just learning. Learning more about somebody being in a wheelchair. We were all new to this too. So, Mike made it easy for us.
Phil Peck 12:10
I just want to go back to wheelchair rugby. How’d you make it from playing in London, Ontario to making it to Canada’s national team.
Mike Whitehead 12:18
So, I met the inventor of the sport, one of the CO inventors in Montreal, in May of 2000. And I asked him what I needed to do to make the national team and he told me. He gave me a few tips and I took them to heart.
And, once I started to put the work in, and my local coach and teammates in London, Ontario, really catapulted me to learn the sport. And, and then I started playing in the US league just to get those reps and had some great coaching there. I went to tryouts and we had a new coach on the national team. And he saw something which was great. He, you know, he saw some potential. So, I was just super fortunate. They saw potential in me early. You know, even with my big mouth. (Laughs)
Phil Peck 13:09
Now you’ve got a bunch of teammates on Team Canada now. I understand you guys each help each other.
Mike Whitehead 13:16
Yeah, what a family. Oh my gosh. I adore my team mates. I adore them so much. Rugby has given me so much. I just love it. I just I’m so thankful, you know. My dreams really did come true.
Phil Peck 13:31
We’ll hear more from Mike, his step-mother and his team mates as Better Together continues.
Thanks to Marathoners, Len and Christine Fuerth for sponsoring this podcast.
Phil Peck 13:54
Welcome back to Better Together with A Life Worth Living. I’m Phil Peck.
In this podcast we’re talking with Mike Whitehead, a member of Canada’s Paralympic wheelchair team. When he was 24, Mike was seriously injured in a car crash.
Mike Whitehead 14:08
I was really, really scared. I couldn’t feel my body. My hands weren’t working. But my family really helped me through. And then I met some other people that were paralyzed, and I could see that I was going to be okay.
Phil Peck 14:21
Now Mike, are there any players on your team who are particularly helpful to you?
Mike Whitehead 14:27
You know, our two team captains, they’re helpful in so many ways. As a constant reminder to me to keep doing the right thing and, and giving back to the sport at all levels. I learned that and, and am reminded of that, to give back, from those guys all the time. Trevor and Pico are wonderful people.
Phil Peck 14:49
Now, I’ve talked to both of them. And they, they say that you’ve helped them a lot as well. What do you say?
Mike Whitehead 14:58
Ah, well! Ha. Ha. It’s nice to hear those things that really is.
Phil Peck 15:03
Well, in fact, we’re going to do that right now on this podcast. I’ve talked to Patricia Dagenais. He’s co- captain of Team Canada, and I talked to him from his home near Ottawa. So, my first question for you is, when did you first meet Mike Whitehead?
Patrice Dagenais 15:20
So, I met, for the first time, Mike Whitehead. I think it was at the Windsor indoor classic games where they were held, I believe in March of 2006. The first time I met Mike. It was for a wheelchair rugby competition.
Phil Peck 15:35
And how did you get involved in wheelchair rugby?
Patrice Dagenais 15:38
Well, I got injured working in on a part time job in construction, building residential houses and I fell from the second storey right down to the basement. So fell two storeys and landed on my back and my head hit the ground. I fractured the six vertebrae in my neck. Damaged my spinal cord. So became a quadriplegic paraplegic that day.
So, I’ve been paralyzed since that day in June of 2003. And a couple of years after my injury, I discovered the sport of wheelchair rugby, through some other quadriplegics that lived close to Ottawa, in my area. And I started, I would say, in the fall 2005.
Phil Peck 16:24
So, what do you like about the sport?
Patrice Dagenais 16:26
There’s a lot of things I like about the sport. You know, I played hockey growing up. That was my favorite sport. So, it reminded me of hockey a little bit, where it’s a fast game. It’s a full contact game. So, it’s intense. You can use your chair to hit the other players. And just the fact of being on a team and playing a team sport, which is something I always enjoyed doing as a kid.
So, when I discovered that wheelchair rugby was a Paralympic sport, it wasn’t hard for me to put the work in, to get motivated and it just helped me. Setting goals just helps me get up every morning and, you know, work hard for what I want to accomplish.
Phil Peck 17:03
Now, being on the team, of course, has other aspects, other than just being at the top of your sport. You have a team that’s very close, I understand.
Patrice Dagenais 17:12
Yes, we are very close. There’s a majority of players that have been playing for a long time. So, we’ve known each other for years and we travel together. So, we do what we need to do to support each other. We fight on the court to be able to beat those other teams, and, you know, savor some victories for our country.
Phil Peck 17:33
Now, it’s not just the sport, though, that you guys talk about when you’re together.
Patrice Dagenais 17:38
Oh no, sure. Like when I started playing, I was only maybe two years after my injury and a little bit lost in life. I didn’t really know anybody else that was in a wheelchair that was a quadriplegic. So, when I started playing the sport of wheelchair rugby, my first practice, you know, I was able to meet guys that went through the same challenges as me. It was really, you know, giving me a lot of hope, seeing that some of them had families, some were working full time, some were Paralympians. They were driving, they were taking care of themselves.
So, for me at the beginning, I was very dependent on my family members. And eventually, by learning from the other quadriplegics that I play rugby with, seeing that they could do so much for themselves, you know, it gave me a bit of a kick in the butt to say, okay, they have the same limitations as me, I guess, the same disability. So, there’s no excuse for me not to be able to be independent and be able to travel on my own I learned so much and I’m so thankful that I found the sport.
Phil Peck 18:38
Now Mike told me that you were one of the people who helps him a lot, but I take it that it’s a two-way street?
Patrice Dagenais 18:44
Yeah, I believe so too. I mean, when I started playing wheelchair rugby, Mike had already been on the national team for a few years. So, he’s a person I definitely looked up to, at that time and I still do now. Mike is just a great person, a great leader, and he always takes time to get to know the younger players on the team and have conversations with them to make sure they feel comfortable.
Phil Peck 19:11
One other quick question here. I know they call you Pico.
Patrice Dagenais 19:14
Yeah. Even before I started playing wheelchair rugby, my nickname was Pico. But there is another Patrice on the national team. So at least people don’t get confused. I’m known as Pico for most of the people that are around wheelchair rugby.
Phil Peck 19:28
Good. Appreciate your help with this. Thanks a lot for talking to us.
Patrice Dagenais 19:32
Phil Peck 19:33
Trevor Hirschfield is the Co- captain of Team Canada. I’ve reached him at his home in Parksville. British Columbia. Hi, Trevor.
Trevor Hirschfield 19:41
Hey, how are you Phil.
Phil Peck 19:43
I’m pretty good today.
When did you first meet Mike Whitehead?
Trevor Hirschfield 19:47
Ah, I first met Mike Whitehead at Canadian nationals. I believe was in 2001. It was hosted in London, Ontario. So that was the first time I kind of met Mike and a lot of the other national team players.
Phil Peck 20:05
So, how did you get involved in wheelchair rugby.
Trevor Hirschfield 20:08
I was introduced to the sport through rehab here in Vancouver. My rec therapist at that time was Duncan Campbell, who was one of the co-inventors of the sport. Duncan, you know, pestered me and kept bugging me to come out and try the sport and I wasn’t really, you know, too interested. It wasn’t till maybe a year after that he told me I didn’t have a choice anymore and I had to come try it out. So, I went and tried out rugby at a ‘Have a Go Day’ and I fell in Love with it.
Phil Peck 20:39
So, now that you’re on the national team, what’s that like?
Trevor Hirschfield 20:43
Well, it’s an honor, really. It’s amazing to be able to, you know, play a sport, represent your country and play at the highest level. You know, getting involved in the sport, wasn’t something that I was planning to do. But as I progressed through the sport, it became a goal of mine. And to be able to play wheelchair rugby for Team Canada with the best other wheelchair rugby athletes in the country and it’s an honor.
Phil Peck 20:12
When you were in rehab, had you ever imagined being where you are now?
Trevor Hirschfield 21:18
No! Not even close. In rehab, I was just trying not to hit myself in the face, when I lifted my arm up. You know, losing a lot of function and slowly trying to deal with my injury and regain my independence. Rugby at first was really just something to distract me from that. And then, I met a lot of great people who had a lot of great insight of different ways to deal with my disability. And you know, how to overcome it. I learned from a lot of amazing people and I’m very thankful for that.
Phil Peck 21:55
Mike tells me that he gets a lot of help from other teammates, like you. Talk to me about that.
Trevor Hirschfield 22:03
I think within our team we’re very supportive of each other and we’d like to think of it as a family. And when it comes to things outside the sport, inside the sport, if somebody is looking for support, there’s always going to be someone there to have your back. You know, a lot of people have had ups and downs, throughout these years. And all of us, in general, have the ability to lean on our teammates for support is pretty amazing.
Phil Peck 22:32
You guys talk about things other than the sport?
Trevor Hirschfield 22:36
Yeah, of course! I mean, really. When it comes to training camps and stuff like that, a lot of the time, after we’re done our session for the day or whatever it is, it’s more just friends hanging out talking about everyday life. Sometimes things come up that the guys need support with or maybe some guidance and you know, you got 11 other athletes they’re willing to help. Yes, it’s pretty cool.
Phil Peck 23:02
And, what kind of benefits do you get personally from being on the team and playing the sport?
Trevor Hirschfield 23:07
Personally, I think it’s the fact that I get to call this a career, or my job and not a lot of people get to say that, and I get to travel the world. I get to stay fit and exercise and play a sport.
Getting involved with rugby for me has had such an impact on my life, even outside of the sport. Just the confidence I’ve gained. And the ability to regain my independence and to overcome my injury and to move on with life.
I think people need to hear that. Obviously, if they’re newly injured or they’re having trouble trying to find where they fit in, getting involved with an activity or sport can be very supportive with that.
Phil Peck 24:00
Well said, I just want to say thanks very much for taking the time to talk to us, Trevor.
Trevor Hirschfield 24:05
Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.
Phil Peck 24:08
So, Mike! How important is it to talk to guys with similar issues that you have in sports and other parts of life?
Mike Whitehead 24:16
Ah, it’s super important for me. I just I like to have the feeling that I’m being of service and being helpful. And being open to sharing my experiences, if it’s parenting or training or the X’s and O’s. And then, when I can have these conversations with teammates, they can share with me (chuckles), what they do that works. And then just build off that, and then we share with newer guys. It’s a beautiful thing.
Phil Peck 24:47
Sue, you’ve seen the national wheelchair team playing an international competition? What’s that like?
Sue Whitehead 24:54
Ah, where do I start? They’re amazing. The families are just super. Mike’s right like, that’s his family. And their family is our family. There’s something about it. I don’t know. I love watching them play.
Phil Peck 25:15
It’s a little bumper-car ish, as Mike said?
Sue Whitehead 25:18
Yes. When I try to describe wheelchair rugby to somebody that’s never heard of it. I say bumper cars and hockey, like, just the checking. There’s a combination of dodge ‘em cars… and it’s nuts.
Phil Peck 25:37
And from what you’ve seen, this has been really good for Mike?
Sue Whitehead 25:41
Oh, it’s been awesome for Mike. He’s learned so much from it. Because he was a single child growing up, he’s got more brothers and sisters playing this sport, and even parents actually. He’s got more parents. Yeah, it’s just something special about this sport.
Phil Peck 25:06
Before I let you go Sue and finish up with Mike, anything else you want to add?
Sue Whitehead 26:11
I’m just very proud of Mike and where he’s come from. And I’m just hoping to see more of him playing and coaching. And just growing.
Phil Peck 26:23
Good. Sue, thanks very much for joining us today.
Sue Whitehead 26:25
Thank you very much.
Phil Peck 26:27
Now, Mike, in addition to playing for Team Canada, I know you have another job involving wheelchairs. You want to tell us about that?
Mike Whitehead 26:34
Yeah. I fit wheelchair rugby players in their rugby chairs. So, we have this small shop out in San Diego – VESCO Metalcraft. Great, great family run business. They build these beautiful pieces of machinery, these VESCO rugby chairs and now, we build everyday chairs.
And it’s just really, really fun to get somebody in a chair that fits correctly and get them really dialed into it because it can really change someone’s game tremendously when they become faster and more agile and more supportive.
Phil Peck 27:10
The rugby chairs are quite different than regular chairs, right?
Mike Whitehead 27:13
Yeah, they’re tanks. They’re lightweight tanks that fit exactly to your body. It’s like the perfect ice skate or the perfect hiking boots, you know, you get it just completely dialed in and tight on your foot and tight on your body and then it moves when you move. And when you can do that, and then you hit somebody hard with it and they fall over, it’s a fun feeling.
Phil Peck 27:38
Fun for you or for the guy that falls over?
Mike Whitehead 27:41
Ah! Both! I’ve been on both sides you know. I’ve fallen over and laughed. I still got an elbow chip from a guy in DC, who hit me. I’ll never forget it. I’ve smacked my elbow and I was laughing because he caught me off guard, you know. He’s half my size and just lit me up. And it’s just these classic moments, these classic hits.
Phil Peck 28:04
Well, I wonder what you see in the future for yourself.
Mike Whitehead 28:08
I can see myself definitely continuing to fit people for chairs. I really enjoy that part of it. And I really adore coaching. I adore giving back to the soldiers with the Invictus team in Canada, and seeing them play the sport and laugh and smile, because that’s what it’s all about. It’s about fun.
And then being involved with Team Canada and the local team, coaching the guys and girls. And just sharing my knowledge and sharing my passion and seeing them learn and light up. And watch them teach other people.
You know, the sport has given me so much so if I can just give a little bit back, it’s the least I can do.
Phil Peck 28:51p
Sounds Good. Mike, thanks very much for taking the time to be part of this podcast. We wish you all the best in your sport and other parts of your life.
Mike Whitehead 28:59
Thank you. Bye. Bye.
Phil Peck 29:01
Our thanks as well to Mike’s stepmother, Susan Whitehead, and to Mike’s teammate’s, Patrice Dagenais and Trevor Hirschfield.
You’ve helped us understand the power of family to help in difficult times, and to understand the benefits of being part of a team encouraging each other to be your best.
Phil Peck 29:20
I’m Phil Peck. Know who you are, decide where you’ll go and choose a life worth living.
This was better together. Thanks for listening.
And thanks again to marathoners Len and Christine Fuerth for sponsoring this podcast.
Ends at 29:55